deathquaker ([info]deathquaker) wrote,
@ 2009-12-21 18:12:00
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Current mood: amused
Entry tags:gaming, rpgs

Uh, Bioware? There's a small tree trunk in your eye there...
So, the Escapist and Destructoid, amongst others, are quoting Bioware co-founder Greg Zeschuk as saying,

"The fall of the JRPG in large part is due to a lack of evolution, a lack of progression. They kept delivering the same thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier, but it's still the same experience."

I don't disagree, Mr. Zeschuk, but let's look at a certain Canadian company's RPGs by comparison:

Baldur's Gate: Murderous forces of darkness are rising to take over the world, and only you, the Bhaalspawn Ward of Gorion can stop him.

Baldur's Gate II and Baldur's Gate II: The Throne of Bhaal: Jon Irenicus, and later, your brothers and sisters, the murderous forces of darkness, are rising to take over the world, and only you, the Bhaalspawn Ward of Gorion, can stop them.

Neverwinter Nights: Ancient beings of strife are rising to take over the world, and only you, the Hero of Neverwinter, can stop them.

Neverwinter Nights: the Shadows of Undrentide: An ancient darkness is rising from a forgotten citadel to destroy the world, and...

Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords are emerging from their hiding place to plunge the galaxy into darkness, and only you, Revan, can... Bonus points: the final boss fight is EXACTLY LIKE the final boss fight in Throne of Bhaal, just on a spaceship.

I didn't play Mass Effect and Dragon Age... but let's see, let's look at a brief description of Dragon Age... ah, here it is: "The Darkspawn are rising to take over the world, and only the Grey Wardens can..."

Hmm.

(Aside: the only reason I haven't played ME is because Securom is on the disk, and the only reason I haven't played DA is because I need a new computer first.)

Yes, I skipped "Hordes of the Underdark</i> but I can't remember the plot of that one. I think it had something to do with Hordes rising from the Underdark and... but then Mephistopheles shows up and shit goes wild. So they were a little different there. But only you, the... anyway.

I can also tell you that most of these games feature some variation on the spunky thief girl (Imoen, Mission), the warrior who says funny things, the broody love interest, the evil snipey woman, etc. (Look up Shamus Young's Stolen Pixels articles for a fun discussion of this.) They all have an extremely similar interface, with extremely similar graphics, just better.

Now, mind you, I LOVE Bioware's games. I wouldn't be able to mock them for this if I wasn't familiar with their games in the first place, but they are the last people to criticize anyone for overusing the same tropes, themes, storytelling, and interface.

And the thing is, people love JRPGs for the same reasons--it might be the same thing over and over again, dressed prettier, but obviously, there's something people like about it. Assuming your brand of repetition is better than someone else's brand of repetition isn't really going to get you anywhere.

And I would be amazed if Bioware ever came up with something like the depth and diversity of gameplay along with epic wartime storytelling that, say, Konami's Suikoden series has. And for all the wonderful things Bioware has done, I sincerely doubt they could pull that kind of game off successfully. It's also a shame, because I'd love to see a Suikoden-like game where party-style combat was fun, and encounter rates were reasonable (the fun combat in Suikoden for me are all the tactical army combats).



"My favorite thing, it's funny when you still see it, but the joke of some of the dialogue systems where it asks, 'do you wanna do this or this,' and you say no. 'Do you wanna do this or this?' No. 'Do you wanna do this or this?' No. Lemme think -- you want me to say 'yes.' And that, unfortunately, really characterized the JRPG."

In other words: "We are better cuz we has REAL dialogue trees."

Yes, well so does Obsidian, and their writers invented Torment and you didn't (even if Bioware made the game engine for them). So there.

Now, I actually do vastly prefer Western RPG dialogues to the "But Thou Must" nonsense that does sadly go on in many JRPGs. But Bioware, you just put your frustrating, bullshit railroading into cutscenes instead. Remember the first combat with Darth Malak in KotOR? You're kicking his ass until you fail your saving throw versus a cutscene so that he can get away? That and a number of other scenes in that game were some of the worst examples of plot railroading I have ever seen, and there was absolutely no damned excuse for it. I doubt it's gotten much better since then.

Also, since when are JRPGs "falling," anyway? How many people have already preordered Final Fantasy XIII? I mean, I'll tell you a little secret: I hate most of the Final Fantasy series with a fiery burning passion. But I'm not going to make silly claims that the genre is failing just because I'm not particularly happy with its direction.

It's not that I think JRPGs are better than Bioware's RPGs--I would rather sit down and play Baldur's Gate than Dragon Quest any day of the week. But that's because I like the particular style of combat and gameplay better--I enjoy the stories and writing in either subgenre equally (and when I don't like them, it's often for similar reasons).

Simply, the particular claims Zeschuk made are laughably hypocritical.

Bioware, you can do better. So quit talking and start living up to your own expectations, eh?




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[info]wombat_socho
2009-12-21 11:20 pm UTC (link)
I have problems with everyone's computer RPGs because they're ALL like this. They remind me way too much of all the modules TSR put out for D&D back in the day - some of them were well written, some of them were horrible crep, but they all had a plot they wanted you to follow instead of dumping you in a forest or a village someplace and letting you find your own trouble. I'm not dissing people who like to play them by any means, but I think what you're talking about, really, is a problem with the whole solo RPG genre.

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[info]deathquaker
2009-12-22 12:50 pm UTC (link)
Bethesda's Elder Scrolls games (Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion) are actually very much "dump you in a village someplace and find your own trouble" as is to a large degree the similarly engined Fallout 3. All of them have a plotline but very little forces you to follow them. Many have agreed that indeed the worst part of Fallout 3 is the plot, and that it's a much better game if you completely ignore it (or spend as little time on it as you can; there are gems in the core plot like Tranquility Lane).

Indeed, the weaknesses of those games is, interestingly enough, the writing is terrible to mediocre. Some don't even have real dialogues, and those that do are not that great.

Bioware writes a really good story. It's the same story, but it's really well written, which is why I'm willing to play their games just like I'm willing to watch a favorite movie or read a favorite book over and over again. And they've gotten better about railroading over time. It's... it's very hard to get across what I'm talking about here because I cannot honestly say I dislike the stories that they write. It's not like a badly done D&D module (see the computer version of Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil for that). It's... well, it's like a really well done one. There is linearity, but you enjoy the ride that you're on. And the fact that there are some unified goals you have makes for an easier opportunity for some complex writing.

You do have to go in understanding that if you're going to play a Bioware game, there will be a somewhat linear story with branching stories. If a Bethesda game, you know to ignore the story completely and just go exploring and have fun with that. If a JRPG, enjoy the really great anime and just try to unlock the next scene with the tedious gameplay as quickly as you can (and try to get ones with less tedious or more varied gameplay, like Shadow Hearts and Suikoden). You can't go in to a single player RPG expecting a GM and all the creativity they can provide. And I understand if you don't find that satisfying--but I don't find linearity TO AN EXTENT a problem with the video game RPGs. For me, it's what you do WITH that story and the game play in between it that makes it fun. Especially since the genre occasionally turns out not-too-linear-but-still-fantastically-storied gems like Planescape: Torment or the Fallout series.

But I just cry hypocrisy when one company decries another company for doing exactly the same thing they do.

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[info]wombat_socho
2009-12-22 03:02 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the detailed reply, which was better than I deserved (really!) and actually answers a few questions that I raised in a post about RPGs on my journal. Agreed that Bioware really shot themselves in the foot; it's not too bright of them to assume that their players are too dumb to notice the similarities between the way their games work and, say, Suikoden, which another friend of mine raves about.

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[info]deathquaker
2009-12-22 08:38 pm UTC (link)
You gave me the opportunity to talk more about gaming! It doesn't take much to get me yammering. :)

I love Suikoden, though there are aspects of it that frustrate me a lot. And the party-based-gameplay is as boring as it is in other JRPGs. But it has a neat tactical army combat feature. The stories are generally cool though--more war epics than "you must save the princess/kingdom/world" kind of thing. And it features more swordswinging babes than you can shake a stick at (and one looks like Jury Arisugawa).

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[info]wombat_socho
2009-12-22 09:52 pm UTC (link)
And it features more swordswinging babes than you can shake a stick at (and one looks like Jury Arisugawa).

Oh, really? I must look into this! ;)

Let me pick your brain some on gaming, since you have a lot of experience with RPG: please take a look at this post, wherein I wonder why MMORPG all look like the old D&D modules and don't really give you the opportunity to build a kingdom with your friends and allies.

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[info]deathquaker
2009-12-23 03:04 pm UTC (link)
I'll answer here and also paste the answer at your blog (don't know how I missed your post the first time).

Caveat: I don't play MMORPGs. I am a curmudgeonly video gamer and like to pound pixels by myself. I don't believe in "appointment gaming" where I HAVE to be online at 10 pm to engage in a guild raid that I don't know when that will end. If I'm going to schedule gaming with my friends, it will be in person, sitting around a table. Also, I know if I enjoyed a game like WoW, I'd probably never stop playing it and be one of those sad flops who goes bankrupt to pay for more gametime and loses my job. So, I can't tell you how those games work in great detail.

But with MMORPGs, you have to look at the first M: Massive. Games like WoW are enormous. If you tried to sandbox them, with people trying to build castles and establish kingdoms--there's no way to feasibly code something that complicated for something where literally millions of people are logging on to play. Technologically, it would be nearly impossible to program (the more freedom you have in a game, the more complex the programming is); socially you would end up having fights over who establishes what and have things like the game's economy go to hell. You thus have to keep the gameplay simple, and let the social interaction reside in however the players want to interact socially.

There ARE "persistent world" games, especially done with Neverwinter Nights and Neverwinter Nights 2, where as I understand it, the setting is indeed more sandboxy, and you can indeed carve out your niche. But PWs are relatively SMALL, with a few people on one server, so they can work out the kinks themselves, and they can actually have real, human Game Masters to help regulate the world. Even there, you're limited by what the game engine is capable of--I've played around a lot of with the NWN2 toolset, and you can build some amazing things--but to use your example of a castle, I'd have no idea how to script a scenario where if someone is of a certain level and has a certain amount of money, how to make a castle appear out of nowhere on the terrain--AS A SPONTANEOUS THING, because of the way you have to sculpt and design the terrain. I could create a script where if you succeed on a quest you get a stronghold, because then I could predesign a piece of terrain with a castle on it, but then that's entirely in my, the designer/GM's hands, not the players.

PWs are probably still closest to the kind of thing you'd be looking for, but I think in the end, it's largely technological limitations combined with the human ability to fuck things up when they come together in large quantities.

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[info]wombat_socho
2009-12-23 03:45 pm UTC (link)
Thanks! I replied to your comment over there, but this was a good one.

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